It's the fight of the millennium, Oscar De La Hoya vs. Felix Trinidad
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKDO9o1p7W_dyyGhmpY5oog
Deremy (00:01.588)
Welcome to Bigger in the Game with Dereme and Jose. I'm Dereme Dove and I'm joined by the man, the myth, the legend, Jose Mania himself, Mr. Jose Ruiz. What's going on, man?
Jose Ruiz (00:10.286)
Jose mania Jeremy what's up, man? How's everything going? How was your holiday man? Talk to me
Deremy (00:17.226)
Yes, it's Labor Day. It's Labor Day Monday night. So I was in Atlanta over the weekend, down there for the Clemson Georgia game. wasn't much of a game, but you know, I, I was there and, good to be back in Philly. You know, Atlanta was nice, definitely, but good to be home. But how's it going with you, man?
Jose Ruiz (00:26.498)
There you go. No, it wasn't.
Jose Ruiz (00:38.136)
Good man, this weekend was nice. You know, some barbecue finally. It's been a little while since I've been to a cookout and that was fun. We watched the Phillies game, you know, got some good food in me, man. And, a lot of running, a lot of thinking. It's been good, man. It's been a lot. It's been a good couple of days for me for sure.
Deremy (00:58.932)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I'm excited because this is an episode that has been like a year to a year and a half in the making. And there's ones that like, man, I get really pumped for. And then there's some, cause you've got to keep it even keel, but there's some that like you get really excited for. And this topic you've been hype, you've been counting down from the jump. I remember when I showed like,
Jose Ruiz (01:09.42)
Absolutely.
Jose Ruiz (01:18.678)
try.
Yeah.
Deremy (01:28.854)
you the all the upcoming anniversaries in 2024. This topic was like the first one that you said, I can't wait to do this. So, man, we're going to be doing this 25th anniversary of De La Hoya versus Trinidad. Maybe the last real fight of the big mega fighter of the 20th century, De La Hoya versus Trinidad and Jose, I'm going to start right there. What about this fight about this topic?
Jose Ruiz (01:36.311)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:55.87)
has been getting your juices flowing, like that you couldn't wait to talk about this for the past year and some change.
Jose Ruiz (02:02.178)
Yeah, this is a big time fight, you know what mean? Like fighting in millennium, that's what they were calling it. And there's so much that goes into this for me, Jeremy, man. And not only me, man, but just a lot of people, especially people that I know. And we've done a lot of boxing stuff on bigger than the game. And it's been very successful for us. And I've talked a lot about my passion for boxing. I know you got a big time passion for it as well, Jeremy.
But this is one of the sports where in my culture, man, in my family, even if you're not a big sports person, like you're up for a big fight. you know, I just remember back in 99, this was, you know, September 18th, 1999. And, this was such a big deal, man, for my community, dude, like the Puerto Rican community. like we could not wait for this fight. Like, you know, when it was announced, man, it was just.
the anticipation just as soon as it was announced, man, it was just building and building and building and building, man. And you got these two young superstar boxers at the time, man, and they were in their prime, man. And it was just a lot of you know, Hagler Hearn stuff was talking, you know, Sugar Ray Hearns was talk like kind of fight anticipation. And I felt that man. I got felt that as a young dude and a lot of people where I grew up, man, were really excited about this fight.
This type of fight here, especially where I grew up at, this was like a holiday, man. I know we mentioned that before and we've used that before, but this was like a holiday for us, man. And it was just like, once it was fight night, man, everyone was glued to their TVs watching this, you know what saying? I remember I just couldn't wait for this fight to happen there.
Deremy (03:51.808)
Well, this fight had a lot of anticipation and a big part of this fight was the cultural. was, know, Trinidad being Puerto Rican, De La Hoya being Mexican, American, and all those things that was going on with it. Jose, something that is, you know, I don't know if people quite know, but I feel like with certain cultures, people know about their boxing lineage. But, you know, I believe Puerto Rico has like the most
boxing Hall of Famers or you had that Puerto Rican lineage. And I kind of wanted you to explain if you can, like what that, what does boxing mean for like that Puerto Rican culture? And why do you think like, I feel like people will go to Mexico, they'll go to other spots. They won't think about Puerto Rico as like having like the most members of the boxing Hall of Fame. Like, why do you think it gets overlooked? At least in my opinion, I think it's overlooked.
Jose Ruiz (04:49.676)
Yeah, mine too. You know, definitely mine too. this like this, it's a huge rivalry like between like, you know, like Mexican boxers and Puerto Rican boxers. Like it's a big time thing, you know, and I know for, again, I'll speak for myself only, man, like just looking back at some of like the great fights of before, man, like there's so many big time matchups, you know, from Mexican fighters, Puerto Rican fighters.
fighter, excuse me, like, Salvador Sanchez versus like Wilfredo Gomez and like all these big time names, man, like that growing up, I used to hear like people talk about like Edwin Rosario, Jose Ramirez. Like it was just so many. then you got this fight and Trinidad Vargas later on and you know, Chavez versus Rosario and like 81 or something. It's just all these fights. Like you always hear.
people like my uncles or something like that will always bring up these fights, man. Like it'll be a good fight. that doesn't mean shit. Like compared to like, you know what I mean? Like, and it's just, it's, it was boxing is something like that as a little kid, man, that, that you're like, not only was they forced to get into men, but in culture where I grew up at, it was heavily talked about. And, and it like fights like this become like,
like a day of celebration, man, for like people and everybody comes over and you kind of like, the fight is like the centerpiece and like, it's like parties and things like that, man. And I know a lot of people do that. Don't get me wrong. Like I know a lot of cultures do that, but it's just, it's just for us, it's, it's a little bigger, man. You know what I mean? Like, and it's, it's a way out of like poverty for a lot of us, you know I'm saying? Like side Mexicans as well. Like, you know I'm saying? Like you go to those countries and
They're a little, it's a little different from what we look, what we're used to here in America. And, it's their way out, you know, and this is before, you know, lot of these fights are before like a lot of Hispanic, but a lot of Puerto Ricans were like making it big and like baseball and basketball has become really big in Puerto Rico. We talked about this. We talked about that on this podcast cleaning times and. know, but that's, that's sports wise, that's pretty much about it. You know I'm saying? Like in Mexico, they have a lot, they're huge soccer fans and things like that. Like in Puerto Rico, we don't really.
Jose Ruiz (07:12.248)
Soccer's not a big deal. Not that don't wanna say a big deal, but not as big of a deal as it is for other cultures. it's just, again, man, like I could be here four hours talking about like what this means, you know what saying? Like, but it's just, it brings out the best in both cultures, man. When you have a fight like this, that's so big time with great fighters.
Deremy (07:22.696)
Yeah.
Deremy (07:33.59)
Well, I kind of wanted to ask you why, because there's a lot of, why is it Puerto Rico and Mexico, like had that rivalry? Like, because it's not, I don't hear, and maybe I'm wrong, like it's not like, don't hear about it with Cuba or other countries, you know, but like it's Puerto Rico and Mexico had that rivalry. Why do you think that that is? And also I guess for the second part, does it stick to just boxing or does that go beyond boxing too?
Jose Ruiz (08:03.382)
I think for me and like the generation I grew up with, it's primarily boxing. You know I'm saying? Like now though, I'll say this, like with like the WBC, like the world baseball classic and stuff, like you're starting to see, Mexico's got a lot of good players too, man. And they're starting to make a lot of noise and that kind of, that atmosphere. So that's been a lot of fun too, especially this past year. They, they, was a good game. So like now you're starting to see that a little more. think that's starting to creep up a lot more, but.
Growing up, man, it was boxing. You know what I'm saying? Like, and again, why? I'm not even sure why, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I just think they both, like both of these coaches have had so many great fighters. And you were talking about it from the beginning there, me where at the end of the day, they're going to meet up, they're going to have to match up. And it's usually for, you know, for unification bouts and things like that, like this fight was, and you know, there's some belts involved and
And it's just a lot of like, a lot of pride in these events, man. Like, you know, who's got the better fighters, you know? And, I don't know. I think typically a of, a lot of times a winner of these fights, man, is probably one of the best fighters in at the time. Like, you know I'm saying? Like I can rattle off a bunch of names and it's just like, yeah, they were probably the best fighter in their, in their eras. You know I'm saying? If not second best or whatever. And just like these two fighters, just like Trinidad and Delahoye where
You they were at the top of their game right here. Like this is as big as they can get. And I know that he just had some lot of big fights, man, but this was the one here where he wins this one. Like he cemented as one of the greatest of all time. And, you know, obviously we all know what happened with the fight, but I just think there, there's so many huge moments in boxing history where it's like a Puerto Rican box and the Mexican box. it's just like.
It's a big deal for whoever wins that fight. When you have that over and over and over again, we do it in lot of sports. When you play a lot of teams in the playoffs and they're just constant playoff matchups, they're, they're begin like there's, you grow like a certain animosity towards that, that team or whatever. It's the same thing.
Deremy (10:12.382)
No, absolutely. No, that's well said. I think it's just interesting because I always hear when it comes to like Hispanic, like it was Mexican, Mexican fighters, but Puerto Rican fight, you don't hear that as much, but there's so many great Puerto Rican fighters and great champions. And I kind of think, why do you think that country doesn't get that recognition?
Jose Ruiz (10:37.062)
That's a great question, Jeremy man, I don't know, you know and I will say this like a lot of these big fights these Mexican fighters have come up have come You know out on top, you know I'm saying which again Made this moment, you know with Trinidad de la Hoya that much bigger, you know I'm saying like but I'm not sure why does there overlook so much? You know what I mean? Like and I Think to a part of it a small part of it
Like when we look at like these great fighters and we've talked a lot about them during this episode, like during these, you know, on the show, you know what I mean? Like a lot of them have like Olympic moments and things like that. Like, just don't recall like a lot of big time Puerto Rican fighters, you know, winning gold medals and things like that, that start, that kick off a career. Like we've talked about like a Sugar Ray Leonard and you know, George Foreman guys like that, where, you know, they,
they're on that stage at an early age and they kind of like propels them into like, you know, superstar them here in the States. And I just, I don't, I haven't seen that a lot with Puerto Rican fighters and I'm not saying it doesn't happen. just, I, I haven't seen that a lot. And, I'm not, I'm not, honestly, I don't get it either there. I mean, it's just like, cause it's a, it's a country where like the sport is huge. You know what I mean? Like, and it's just, and they're pumped out so many great fighters, but
It just doesn't get looked at like that.
Deremy (12:06.826)
No, and I have theories, but I won't say I'm here. But there's some theories I do have about why, and I'm not saying that they're accurate, but it's just things that pop into my mind. all this being said, and the reason why we're setting it up this way is because for those who may not remember, you know, how big of a name Felix Trinidad was in boxing.
And when I, you know, I joked at the beginning of the episode, Jose mania, I said that because Tito mania was a legit thing. And he was one you looked at boxing at this time, the biggest names, you know, I'll leave Tyson out of it. Like as a heavyweight and just with all the controversy, but I would say at this point, even because Roy Jones Jr. Hadn't had, he was a big name and exciting. He hadn't had that real, no one was in his division. So that's super fight.
Jose Ruiz (12:38.712)
Hell yeah.
Deremy (13:01.27)
You didn't have, but De La Hoya and Trinidad to me at this point in September 99 are the biggest names in boxing and they are both getting that must watch, you know, kind of feel to them. De La Hoya, we've talked about him before for his boxing ability, but also for the matinee idol stuff. But Trinidad, someone who didn't speak English, but was getting a lot of popularity in America and throughout the world.
I think what got me was growing up, didn't know about, I knew about Hector Macho Camacho, Wilford Benitez. I didn't know as I got older, the lineage of Puerto Rican fighters, but a lot of people say like he was the biggest Puerto Rican athlete since Roberto Clemente.
Jose Ruiz (13:45.858)
Yeah. Yeah. He was big time there. I mean, man, like big, big, big, big time. And I think him not speaking English made it even better, you know, cause you know, the, the contrast between these two fighters was, know, Delahoye was, you know, this great fighter and I, and he talked about it. did a certain, we did an episode just on Delahoye and he was a great fighter. I'm not taking anything away from him, but you know, a lot of people, even in his own culture,
didn't really like they weren't open their arms weren't open to him, you know I'm saying like it was just like he's more of an American fighter than anything else, you know With Trinidad that was we didn't feel that you know I'm saying like we felt like he was pure like 100 % like for our culture man, you know I'm saying like and again I think with him and his dad and being in this corner and his dad being the good trainer and
him coming in, not speaking too many, too much English. And every time you interview Trinidad, it was always say, he would stop and say something about Puerto Rico and how much he cared about the Island and things like that, man. And it's just, and he wasn't this, he was a great fighter, but he was just a straight warrior. You know what I mean? Like, and you knew it, one, it was going to be an exciting fight. And then two, like he's probably going to come out on top and
What trend of that fights I saw was just no outside. He's going to get rocked and one of these rounds possibly go down, but he's going to get up and he's going to do his thing. You know what saying? Like, and then when he wins that fight, he's always represented. It's just, he was just a perfect Puerto Rican fighter for the moment. You know I'm saying? Like, and, and again, like it was a time where, you know, a lot of Puerto Rican artists were coming out, say like in hip hop and things like that, you know, you had fat Joe and like,
guys like Big Pon and it was just, it was just a perfect storm, you know, for Tito Trinidad where he was involved. He was in a lot of music videos and you know, this is September 18th, the Puerto Rican parade in Philadelphia. It's like two weeks after this, like you'll see a lot of times that he would be in these parades in New York and he was everywhere, man. And he was being put in the spotlight by a lot of other people, which really worked in his favor.
Deremy (16:01.086)
No, that's a great point because I feel like he is now forgotten. Now he's in the boxing hall of fame, but he's forgotten, you know, as one of the greatest, a great fighter, one of the best of his generation, one of the best welterweight and, you know, had the longest reign of welterweight as a welterweight champ in boxing history. Like, I don't think people would get that answer right. Like even I think real big boxing fans might overlook that and say somebody else, but
Jose Ruiz (16:08.173)
Yes.
Deremy (16:30.858)
who had the longest reign as a welterweight champion, was Felix Tito Trinidad. So this guy was, yeah. And second most in the division with like title defenses only behind, you know, Armstrong. So that's really big. So I just think people overlook what a great fighter he was. But a big thing about it is the contrast in styles with Oscar and Felix. And I think one thing that people love about Felix was,
Jose Ruiz (16:35.586)
What was that? Six years, right? It was over six years, something like that.
Deremy (16:59.316)
He was that classic big puncher and great knockout power too.
Jose Ruiz (17:01.944)
Yeah.
Yeah, that left hook was vicious, man. And, you know, he put a lot of guys down, man. I remember at this time, man, they had like, and it was a couple years after this fight, but I had seen online where it was just like his last like six, seven fights, they were just showing like the guys that he fought and how they looked afterwards and they were all lumped up and stuff. It was crazy, man. But he was there to fight.
You know what saying? Like he was there to fight and he was an action fighter. And that's why it was just much watch, must watch there, man. It was like, at this time I did not miss any Tito Trinidad fights because you knew somebody was going down. It might be even him. You know what saying? I've seen a lot of his fights where he was hitting, he was stumbling around and he was in a lot of trouble, you know, and he would get in the corner and his dab smack him in the face like, and tell him to get with it, man. And he would take some, take
time he needed man, he's coming back and he's throwing bombs as well. even in this fight, the Delahoya fight, Delahoya was trying to like shake his hand at the beginning of the fight, he knock the gloves out of the way. He was just all about, he was always on go time like these kids say today, man. Like he was always on go, and it was just fun to watch as a boxing fan, period.
Deremy (18:20.03)
No, I think absolutely. And I think that's the one thing about it. What always got me with watching Trinidad was he was the first fighter I remember looking at and being like. And I think he kind of helped explain what punching power is to me, because he was not a lot of times look at people's bodies, like how jacked they are, how cut you look at Tito. He always kind of had a bit of bit of pudge on him. Yeah, he had like skinny arms.
Jose Ruiz (18:41.014)
Right. Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (18:45.708)
Yeah, a little dad bug on,
Deremy (18:50.236)
Like he didn't look like the guy who would be like, like the one of the most feared knockout artists in boxing. Like you wouldn't paint Tito Trinidad. You wouldn't picture Fernando Vargas had to look like that. Right. Certain guys had a look. Trinidad didn't have that look, but yet everyone talked about and everyone feared his punching power. And it was very rare, especially as a welterweight. Now when he moved up, it was different, but as a welterweight, I don't remember a fight where he wasn't the
Jose Ruiz (19:03.9)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (19:15.521)
Yeah.
Deremy (19:20.384)
the overall favor as far as like, like that punching power, you're to go to Trinidad as like the guy who has more of it.
Jose Ruiz (19:27.448)
Yeah. Yeah. He was definitely, he definitely did not look like a superior athlete, you know, for sure. And I wouldn't give them that, you know, but yeah, he had that natural punching power, man. That is just some stuff you can't teach, you know, these fighters and you know, he had good reach, you know, so he can hit, he can, had power in both hands. You know, I wouldn't even call him like one of the best boxers. He was just a, he was a good fighter. You know I'm saying? Like I think fighter is the appropriate term to use with him. And,
when describing to Trinidad. So now in that left hook was something, you know, to be feared, you know, and I've seen him put a lot of guys down with that left hook. The thing was he was standing in there, man, going, he was in, he was an inside fighter. He was in there, you know, he would take, he would take a shot, but he was, he was trying to deliver that left and you can hit him, but when he hit you at the left, it was just something different.
Deremy (20:19.158)
No, absolutely. And I think what's interesting to me and kind of connecting with this Puerto Rican Mexican rivalry is on the flip side with De La Hoya. Now he had had some great, in 99, he had a great battle. his, arguably one of his finest performances, definitely the top, Mount Rushmore was that fight with Ike Korte. Like a very great fight. I think that and the Vargas fight, like.
Jose Ruiz (20:41.282)
I think it was his best fight.
Jose Ruiz (20:46.114)
Yeah, it's a bargains one. Yeah, you will deserve.
Deremy (20:47.338)
Those are the two that stick out to me as like wow and that was earlier in the year So he was starting to kind of because he had a battle with especially the the pure Fight fans and definitely with the Mexican boxing fans like they kind of like you said earlier You're more you're not Mexican. You're more the American guy But I shows that like he had that kind of fight which I think showed people like he can hang in there because I court a
was a tough fighter and knocked him down too. You know, but I think, man, when this fight got signed and set up, Mexican fans took him right in. Oscar was taken, like they brought him right in though. Like when it was Mexico versus Puerto Rico, they took him in. Like all the stuff before beating Chavez, that went out the window when it was time to fight Tito.
Jose Ruiz (21:17.326)
There he was. Yep.
Jose Ruiz (21:27.37)
Yeah, hell yeah
Jose Ruiz (21:39.01)
Yeah. And I'll go back to that court a point that you made. think the reason why I say it was his best fight because yeah, Vargas, he just trashed them, complete trashed them. But the court a fight was like, he almost proved himself a little bit. You know what I mean? Like that he can go in there and take shots and then still come out on top and deliver shots as well. And that 12th round, man, like that's what Brown.
If you haven't seen that fight, man, if you want to do a rewatch, rewatch that fight. If not, watch that 12th round. That fight was like a pretty even fight, you know? And it was like, whoever's going to win that 12th round was going to come out on top. And he, just went right at Cortez, man. And he was, he was hitting them with bombs, you know? And he gained a lot of respect that fight, you know what I mean? Like, and the problem was when the fight with Trinidad, that respect that he gained, he lost a lot of that, you know what saying? Like, so.
But again, I think watching that performance and understanding what Tito Trinidad was, it's like, man, like this is going to be this Delahoya against this Trinidad. Man, like this is going to be an amazing fight.
Deremy (22:45.856)
No, absolutely. And this fight just had so much hype to it. And I know we've talked about it a little bit, you know, we talk about it a lot when it comes to it because it boxing so different now, but I was thinking earlier today, getting ready. I was going to be like, man, even like non -heavyweight, but I'll include heavyweight. Now we both were born, you know, in the eighties. So like those Ali fights and all, and even like those Leonard Duran, Leonard Hearns.
we were kind of young for when it comes to pre fight hype and really grabbing the sports fan grabbing the country's attention. Where would you rank this in your lifetime? And so, you know, let's go, that's probably the last 35 to 40 years as like a boxing fan. Where do you rank this as far as like the pre fight hype?
Jose Ruiz (23:16.728)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (23:36.43)
for...
Jose Ruiz (23:41.644)
like Pacquiao Mayweather was huge, you know what mean? Like that was, and that broke this fight's record for like pay -per -views and things like that, I believe it was. But again, I think for me, like this is number one. Like, because again, like just culturally, again, for me, I'm gonna go there where it's just like, this was so huge, man, like so huge for us.
And we, it was just, it was the perfect time for this fight for me, man. Like in my age and you know, everything that was going on again, like I was talking about earlier with like music and things like that, like the people involved there, it was just so many more Hispanics coming out and doing things like that. And like, and then this fight gets put right in the front of that. It was just a perfect time for all of this. And I think for me, this was number one, man. Even like the weigh -in they put the, they did the weigh -in and the actual like,
Caesar's Palace or whatever. It was crazy, man. It was like 40 ,000 people just for the weigh -in, you know? And it's just, the hype for this was amazing, man. And I think for me, again, Mayweather Pac -Yau was huge, man. Huge, huge, huge. But this one for me personally was number one.
Deremy (24:53.974)
I think it was number one in my lifetime too, honestly. Cause I was thinking about man, like the first Tyson Holyfield, but I don't think it had that kind of a lore like this fight because both fighters were older. And then I'm like Mayweather Pacquiao, like you said, it broke the, the, the pay -per -view record that this fight had, but there was always a little caveat of
Jose Ruiz (25:06.338)
Nah.
Deremy (25:23.062)
They knew that they both still were great fighters. They weren't in their prime Yeah I Think a lot of people were saying that it still was height and someone wanted to argue and say that's number one Like I can understand why but I think the fact that these guys are I think both like 26 27 like Like they were in their prime. They both were undefeated and it was like even then, you know in watching stuff like
Jose Ruiz (25:27.042)
Yeah, this should have happened five years ago. That's what my mindset was, yeah.
Jose Ruiz (25:42.712)
Yeah
Deremy (25:52.746)
recently to look back on it, the talks were like this was going to find their legacy.
I think this was number one. And like you said, the pre, like the, weigh -in was sold out and this was something that it was that last fight that had that true like Superbowl kind of feel to me. And when I say that Mayweather Pacquiao, I felt it like the week of.
Jose Ruiz (26:18.136)
Yeah, you mentioned that, yeah, before. I remember you saying this.
Deremy (26:20.552)
Like this fight, was a countdown. was like a of months. was like, right, coming. It's coming. And then like you had like pregame shows, like I remember Jim Lampley and Roy Jones and Larry Merchant. Like we're going, it was like an hour just on this fight and like, like a week before a couple of weeks before, and it was just counting it down. Like you couldn't wait. this, this was to me, like that last mega fight like that, that when boxing was still something.
Jose Ruiz (26:35.842)
Yeah.
Deremy (26:49.15)
You know, so I just think that people don't realize how big of a deal this was.
Jose Ruiz (26:53.87)
Right, I think to your point, Dereme, I think where these guys were at in their careers, that's what made it so much bigger. You know what I mean? Like, and I mean, if you look at, you know, prior to this fight, Delahoye is 31 and 0, 25 knockouts. Trinidad is 35 and 0 with 30 knockouts. Like these guys are both undefeated, man, both champions. They're trying to unify, you know, the division and the belts and, you know, and they're both in the...
literally in their prime of their careers, man. again, that's the, we've talked about this, we talked about this in our last episode when we, you we've talked, we rewatched the other fight and it's, you know, the Pacquiao Marquez fight where it was just every fight now, it's like so much politics by the time they get to that fight, especially, like you said, like that Bandy Pacquiao Mayweather fight, by the time you get to that fight, it's like a couple of years too late. You know I'm saying?
This one was like, no, like this one was like the whole, you'll be court a Trinidad was waiting. And it was like, boom, it's, go. Like it's, it's on like, and they signed this fight and it was just like, man, like you said that it was a true countdown for this fight. And it was like, I can't wait to September, man. I watched this fight. And I just remember back around this time, like it was so many big fights in September. I used to love it, man. Like, cause I knew it was like football season was coming. Like it was just.
September is a great month, plus it's my birthday. So it's a great month to be involved in sports, man. But this was different, man. This one was from the day that they announced it. The anticipation was student -rooted.
Deremy (28:33.212)
No, absolutely. And there's a lot of talks, especially back then because of the fight being in Vegas and De La Hoya being, he's from LA, but you know, he really put like a lot of like time and stuff. He was a Vegas guy and they felt like, I do think De La Hoya won the Icorte fight, but there was controversy, especially with a couple of his recent fights in that Icorte fight in particular. And they felt the judges scored it way more.
to Oscar than what it should have been. And there was worry about if that's going to happen to Trinidad.
Jose Ruiz (29:10.2)
Yeah. And Vegas was Delahoyas. You know what I mean? Like that for sure. That crowd was always pro Delahoyas. Even in this fight, pro Delahoyas, know, so definitely like I remember when this fight was coming up and that was a big concern of mine was if this does go to the judges, a lot of times it's going to favor Delahoyas. Cause again, he's one of the fighters where he was so popular that he can hit you with, you know, and he did this
Very well where it was like that that countdown of 10 second noise and he would come with a flurry and the crowd will go crazy that's the the lot of judges a lot of times man and Right, right and he would hit you with a couple shots the crowd will go nuts And that to you like as a judge like you may think like he's winning the round You know what mean? Like and that was a big -time concern because again like Trinidad was big He wasn't Delahoya big. I don't think at this time yet, you know, so
Deremy (29:48.989)
Ray Leonard trick.
Jose Ruiz (30:08.846)
It was 100 % a concern.
Deremy (30:12.522)
No, I think Oscar was the biggest star in the sport at this time. Tyson was kind of, you know, he's on a different, Tyson's almost like hard to compare because he was just, he was probably more famous than Oscar you could say, but it was like, he was like a sideshow. You know, it wasn't like as far as like just the boxing with him. So I think that that's where it was hard. But do you think when we know if we're going to do a rewatch of this fight on our YouTube channel?
Jose Ruiz (30:15.917)
Right.
Jose Ruiz (30:23.906)
Yeah, I know.
Deremy (30:42.442)
But do you think that hearing about, we're so pro -Oscar here, that that swayed the judges maybe to go more in Trinidad's favor in the fight? Or they had nothing to do with it?
Jose Ruiz (30:55.022)
I I don't know. I think human nature, if you're a judge and you're hearing this and you're like, well, I can't let that happen. I can't show that. So it may sway away, you you judge around here and there. You know what I mean? Like, if I give this to the Oscar, they're going to think like, you know, it's because you love them here or whatever. Like, no, I think that can be the case. I mean, you never know. But as people hear stuff and I know this isn't like,
social media era, things like that. But still, this fight was so big that they were, this was everywhere. You know what saying? In a town like Vegas, this is before all these sports teams were going to Vegas and they had other things to look at. You had UNLV at this time and that was it. UNLV wasn't even big at this time. So, no, I think it could happen. I don't think it happened at this fight, but if it did, I would understand.
Deremy (31:55.67)
So, looking at this, going into the fight, we knew that Oscar would have to be the boxer and Trinidad had the punching power. Now, I know, you know, 25 years later we see it, but going into that fight, and I know especially what it means, like I love Trinidad too, but I know it was a different love for you. But I know me, when I saw that fight, I knew what was going, like what the styles were.
Were you surprised, and I'm not talking about now, but September 99, young Jose, were you surprised by how much of that early fight Oscar was taking at the Felix?
Jose Ruiz (32:31.8)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (32:39.01)
He was whooping his ass. You know what mean? Like he was, and it wasn't like he was landing like a lot of power shots or whatever that you could say, he was falling all over the place. He was, he was, it was a masterclass. You know what I'm saying? As they say, you know what I mean? Like he was boxing beautifully and I don't get me wrong. Like going into this fight, it was a concern at Delahoye was going to win. You know what saying? He was a great, he's a great fighter, man. All time great fighter. And it was going to be a tough matchup for Trinidad because what
Oscar can do like Oscar can he had enough power to knock Trinidad out for sure But I think if you look at if you were to ask me September 18th, 99 Jose probably would like a do -rag on or something like that Like, know who he who was a better boxer? It was hands down Oscar de la Hoya. So he came out he boxed beautifully man Like I was surprised one of my best friends was a huge Oscar de la Hoya fan, man He was like dude. I told you like this is gonna be easy fight like
And it looked like it was going to be a very easy win for Oscar De La Hoya. Like those first six, seven rounds, man, I was like, oof, man, he was nearly pitching the shutout, you know, and it was just that bad. you know, Trinidad was just chasing them and chasing them around. And Oscar was just kind of stepped back and hit him with three or four shots, bounced right back out. was, he went in there with a beautiful game plan and he was executing it very well.
Deremy (34:05.974)
So a big part of this is do you think it was the first six or seven or the first nine? Because that plays a big part in the scoring here. So where do you, I know we're going to rewatch it, just where do you think it was? Because some people say the first nine rounds is when Oscar did his thing and then the last three he kind of ran around. Do you think it was nine? Do you think it was little bit earlier?
Jose Ruiz (34:30.326)
It was a, I would say no later than the nine for sure. I would, I would give it like seven or eight, those first seven or eight rounds. You know, I think the ninth round, was still kind of like he started, that's when he kind of started this track start thing. And, but I get why people say the first nine, cause it was just, it was pretty bad. You know what I mean? Like, and I think, you know,
Honest scoring for those first nine rounds was probably 6 -3 Delahoya. Some people had a 7 -2 like, you know, Delahoya, but It was it was bad. It was 100 % loussided and I know at the end of the fight he was screaming I'll punch them by 125 punches, but it's like those first especially those first five or six rounds where it was just bad and it was good for Delahoya but bad for if you return to that fan
Deremy (35:20.276)
And now.
Do you think in a way, like this fight to me, and this is my opinion has really hurt Trinidad's legacy. And like, even though he's technically the winner, but do you think because he got outclassed by that much and it wasn't that close that it kind of made it seem like he he's not on De La Hoya's level. Like he's like a class below. Like, do you think that's what it kind of made him look like or appear to look like?
Jose Ruiz (35:49.634)
Yeah, yeah, because I agree and I Yeah, and I kind of agree with that, you know, like It as bad as as much as that hurts me to say that especially back then back then I probably wasn't saying that but now looking back like Yeah, it looked like that. he was a much better fighter in this fight And if he would have just continued with the game plan, it would have been an easy win It just looked like that. Like I don't know if he continues with the game plan and you know
Maybe Trinidad hit someone with a couple shots and it changes the fight. I don't know, right? Like we can't live in those like making things up at this point, but it was, it looked really easy for Delahoyah if we're being honest.
Deremy (36:32.726)
Now we can say definitely the last three rounds, you know, you may say nine through 12. four rounds, Oscar's going to lose those just on he's not, he's not engaging. He's running around. He didn't do anything. Do you believe in having enough points where that doesn't matter or should that matter?
Jose Ruiz (36:45.858)
He can do anything. Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (36:57.346)
No, I watching this fight live, I was like, man, like you can't win a fight like this. Like you just cannot do that. And, and it's like an almost like an unwritten rule pretty much. Like you, you have to not to say you have to stand in there and fight and potentially take a shot, but I think there's a difference where it's like you're ahead and way ahead in points and you do a few things here and there to kind of like continue your momentum. He was doing none of that.
You know what saying? Like it was just, he was running in circles and when Trinidad, when maybe hit him with a shot, he was just kind of like, he would do like this like fade away type of thing and just kind of keep running. And he would throw maybe one or two, three punches. And it was just, it looked really bad. You know what I mean? Like, and I think he didn't, he didn't have to stay away that much, you know? And I think it was a part of like his respect for the power of Trinidad.
But also I think he mailed it in and he's admittedly says he mailed it in, but like it was just, it was just bad. Like he was running way, way too much.
Deremy (38:05.334)
But do you think that should be enough to make you lose a fight? Let's say, let's ask you, like going into round nine, so the first eight rounds, where did you have the fight? Like how many rounds Oscar, how many Felix?
Jose Ruiz (38:21.912)
first eight I would say if I you know just thinking about it probably like five to three Oscar maybe I would say by the night I would say like it was like six to three Oscar maybe like by that point so
Deremy (38:37.116)
after so going into the last three rounds six to three
Deremy (38:44.153)
We give the last three to Trinidad because he engaged. He really didn't do much against Oscar either.
Jose Ruiz (38:49.42)
Right. Yeah. He was, couldn't like, you know, and not that he couldn't, but he was trying at least, you know, he was being the aggressor and I know judges score for that. Also, like if a fighter is more of the aggressive fighter, maybe throwing some more power punches, they tend to lean to that, you know, but he was barely hitting them. You know what saying? Like he didn't get him with a good shot and anything. was just like a couple of grazing punches that La Jolla will kind of fly backwards and run around. So I think he just got the
Deremy (38:51.434)
Right.
Jose Ruiz (39:18.666)
rounds just based off of what the La Hoya was doing at that point.
Deremy (39:22.26)
Which do you think, cause for me, think that's enough to make it closer on the scorecard, but I still think just the way the fight was, it was hard to not give it to De La Hoya.
Jose Ruiz (39:37.162)
I agree. You know what mean? Like, trust me, I, I, I go, know where you're going with this, but,
Deremy (39:44.916)
And this is also real quick by someone not an Oscar fan. And if you ask me in my lifetime favorite boxers who I watched, he's might be number one. I love Felix Trinidad too. would like, I rooted for him to beat Bernard Hopkins and Hopkins is from Philly. Like, so I'm, this is someone who I was pro Trinidad always in that night too.
Jose Ruiz (40:01.954)
Right, right.
Jose Ruiz (40:09.41)
Right, done.
I'm gonna say this as probably a huge turn of that fan, just pretty much echoing what you just said. Do I think he should have won that fight? No, I don't think he should have won that fight. I'll be very honest. The boxing analyst, whatever you wanna say, me, you know what I'm saying? Clearly saw he was outmatched this fight and Delahoyah, even though he mailed it in, should have won by at least a round.
Deremy (40:27.28)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (40:38.338)
You know what saying? Like at least like if you're going to give him those three rounds at the end fine, know deserve Deserve Lee Delahoy should have lost those three rounds for sure But to me he was so ahead like He should have won this fight, know what I mean? Like but I Can understand where it's like you can't win running around like that. Like I get the concept and the idea of that but if you're really asking me man if you
Deremy (40:46.644)
Right, right.
Jose Ruiz (41:05.602)
had a gun in my head like no I think Oscar De La Hoya won that fight.
Deremy (41:10.122)
No, so, and I do too.
Do you call this another black market boxing?
Jose Ruiz (41:21.89)
Not a black mark, but like a dark blue. You know what mean? Like a dark blue mark. because again, I think that La Jolla put himself in position to allow this to happen. You know what I mean? Like, I really do see, even if he does that for like two rounds, you know what I mean? Like, and maybe the 12th, comes out a little more aggressive. Then I think it's a black mark for sure. Like if they still give you to Trinidad, but.
It just it just didn't feel and look good on on Delahoyah for ending that fight like that like you just You just can't do that. You know what saying? I don't even know there's no other way for me to say it just you just can't do that and He did it and it's and also hit it it being him also, I think was a big factor in like It's like this and I hate to say this but it's like the soft in like
Kind of like.
especially like a Mexican community, but just to call him soft, like, just to be honest, we've been straight up and it's like, he was a great fighter, but there's still something soft about him. And it's just like, that almost like elevated that and showed people like, yeah, he's a great fighter, but he's still soft, man. Like he's a bitch. you know, it just didn't look good there. I I don't even know how else to say that.
Deremy (42:50.782)
No, I think it does. It was his reputation. I think it's unfair and fair. I know we've talked about that with Oscar. I think it's unfair because if you step in that ring for any little bit of time, if you were an amateur fighter, I think that's you're tough, let alone you're a pro fighter. There's no pro fighters who are soft. Like it doesn't exist. Like just like there's no pro football players who are soft. Like
Jose Ruiz (43:00.107)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (43:09.464)
Hell yeah.
Jose Ruiz (43:13.218)
No, absolutely not.
Deremy (43:19.862)
Like that's that that's like the opposite doesn't make sense you can't Mm -hmm
Jose Ruiz (43:24.638)
And he was great too. Like, you know what saying? Like, so he, that, doesn't make sense, but.
Deremy (43:29.504)
So I think that's where he that's unfair because there's there's nobody and I think if you step in that ring and someone who just I just trained a little bit I'd never really fought like that, but I know you're big fan. We've been in gyms and stuff like that There's nothing soft about it. So like that's where it's wrong And that's where I always I do and I'm gonna say that younger Jeremy wasn't gonna say that about him But as an adult
Jose Ruiz (43:32.59)
Right. Yes.
Deremy (43:55.954)
I'm like, look back and I was wrong for thinking that and people are wrong for back then and now. But I do think what hurt him was I get some people know how to sell fights and there's nothing, no crime being a very good looking guy. Like it's not wrong with that.
Jose Ruiz (44:15.18)
Right, it's hard work there, I man, it's tough.
Deremy (44:17.398)
Yeah, you know it you know better than me so It is no crime against that but I think people do look at the pretty boy and are gonna be against you and then I think he was never showing his authentic self and That's that's what hurt him. He was always giving I Don't even want to say because at the time like you talked about it Derek Jeter
Jose Ruiz (44:36.248)
Yeah, he was fake.
Deremy (44:46.824)
never gave, he never showed himself, but I don't think he gave a phony answer. He didn't give an answer that he thought that you wanted to hear, to be fair to him. He didn't give emotion. He didn't give you like a juicy answer. He gave you just a flat answer. But I also never was like, well, he's kind of sold out there. It was like, nah, he gave just, he wasn't going to give you anything. Oscar, I felt like he was going to give whatever that person interviewing him wanted.
Jose Ruiz (44:53.653)
Absolutely.
Deremy (45:14.538)
or whatever he the people wanted, he was going to say that. And I think that's what really hurts Oscar. And this fight didn't help him.
Jose Ruiz (45:21.41)
Right now great point does that so spot on? Because he seems fake like you know I'm saying like and we talked about it during our episode where it's just Like we know the talents there right and it's just the the personality just seems the smile seems fake to me like He's just so and he's a great promoter because he's full of shit like you know I'm saying like and it's just like you see that you feel it through the screen almost you know and just You know listening to him
Deremy (45:42.178)
huh.
Jose Ruiz (45:50.06)
If you go back, like HBO did, you know, a series on an episode on this fight, I forget that what the show was called, like, Leonard Nights. And just listening to him doing that, like, he's blaming the corner for telling him to kind of like, you know, take it easy those last three rounds. Yeah, they probably said to him, like, just be careful and box him out. But like, you're still the fighter in the ring. How many times you see a corner, like a trainer telling a fighter something and then he does nothing of the way he was told to do.
Deremy (45:56.512)
The Legendary Knights.
Jose Ruiz (46:20.13)
You're the fighter, you're in the ring, you need to make that happen, you know? So even that answer, I was like, dude, like you could have left that part out. Like you don't have to say that because even though you're like not saying it, you're saying that you're blaming the corner. So it's, I don't know.
Deremy (46:35.158)
But it's funny because that episode of Legendary Nights, he says early on, my corner said it, ultimately I'm the one. So he takes responsibility and then you keep watching the episode, he's pointing the finger. right there, I've seen that a million times, but rewatching it in preparation for the podcast, I'm like, yeah, like even if you...
You can't even stick with your BS right because you're saying it's on me. I'm the fighter in the ring But then you kind of go to well, I was tired But then also the corner told me to do that and blah blah blah blah and the judges Yeah, the judges said this and the judges did that but then it's like what happened to responsibility And I and that's what frustrates me with him and it's a shame because I should look back with
Jose Ruiz (47:14.99)
Yeah, the tire thing too.
Deremy (47:31.402)
A lot of athletes who I wasn't the biggest fan of for whatever reason when I was growing up. And now I'm like, man, I watched this great athlete perform. Like I, maybe I didn't, I didn't give him enough props, but he or she was great. He should be top of that list for me, but he's not because of stuff like that, because I, I remember she, I know you did too, from start to finish that career. And I still don't go like, wow, I saw De La Hoya. I'm like, yeah, he's a great fighter. Next. Like I, I'm not going to give you that because he was phony.
Jose Ruiz (48:00.428)
Right. And even, you know, the way he was acting in the ring when they were announcing like, you know, like the scorecards and stuff, like the judges scores for the fight and, know, watching it, I did the same thing. I rewatched that cause I've watched that a hundred times. love that. I love that show and, watching that he was like, yeah, when I heard the first, when they announced the first score, first judge's score, I had a feeling the
You not he didn't say the fix was in, but he said something very similar to that. And I was like, dude, like this Vegas, that's your town, man. Like how many you, you, you were on the other end of that plenty of times fighting in Vegas. So don't come out here acting like you kind of had a feeling like, come on, man. And it's just those moments for me. It's like, I didn't never respected this guy fight watching him growing up. And, and I knew one thing and I said it during our episode, our Delahoy episode, he fought on everybody.
Deremy (48:33.824)
Mm -hmm.
Jose Ruiz (48:59.726)
I give him that credit, but it's just the other stuff that I just could not be a fan of. And I know a lot of Oscar fans, man. I just couldn't do it because the extra stuff. It's just, I can't do it there.
Deremy (49:13.928)
No, it is tough and I look at this fight and I look at these fighters and there's for different reasons, it's legacies that aren't given their proper due. But I want to know in your opinion, whose legacy was damaged more? I don't think anyone came out great from this fight. Whose was hurt more from this fight though? De La Hoya or Trinidad?
Jose Ruiz (49:43.832)
Yeah, I was going to say that. I think this fight hurt both fighters. You know what I mean? Like, but if you look at the trajectory of their careers, you know what I mean? Like I think it, if you look at, you know, Trinidad's career, he fought a couple more times. He fought Fernando Vargas after this couple fights after this destroyed him, beat up William Joppy, who was a good fighter at the time. But after this, think William Joppy was pretty much gone.
And then the blueprint was out there. You know what saying? Like, and you needed a smart fighter to kind of like saw what the Hoya did and, and do the same thing to Trinidad. And that's what happened with Bernard Hopkins. And obviously he's moving up in weight. So we talked about the weak chin and now the punching power is not as, not as high as, as it was with, you know, we were well to wait. Now you're fighting bigger dudes and they could take some of these punches. It was just not a good thing for, for Trinidad to move up anyway, but I get he had to do that.
So he loses that fight, that fight kind of pretty much ends his career. He probably had a couple more times lost his last two fights, boom. Like if you look at De La Hoya, you know, he loses to Trinidad, loses to Mosley a couple fights after, you know, wins a few more fights. He beats up Vargas, which was like a trend around this time and loses to Mosley again. And then he loses to Hopkins and then next, you know, he's like winning and losing, winning and losing. Like it's...
To me, Delahoya looked better after this, you know, cause he fought more times also. Trinidad fought a couple more times and he was just gone. But I think overall, to answer the question, Jeremy, like I think it hurt Delahoya's legacy way more than it did Trinidad's legacy. Cause look, Trinidad, people don't really like, I know people talk about like what Delahoya did to Trinidad in this fight, but he won the fight. Like, you know I'm saying? Like, so a lot of people overlook a lot of that stuff.
And just like, look, but Delahoyah ran cause he knew, you know, like all that stuff. But to me, like, again, Delahoyah was always fighting that he needed to prove himself to his own community that he was a tough fighter and was a great fighter. And if he just continues doing it, he whoops, he whoops Trinidad. I think this elevates Delahoyah in a different level, man, like, but didn't do that.
Jose Ruiz (52:06.198)
And he almost cemented what everybody was saying to about him previously. So to me, I think it just killed Delahoye's legacy.
Deremy (52:15.523)
No, that's really those those are good points and it's kind of like these are two fighters in their prime They both went south after this in a way. I gotta ask Something that I'd never really thought about a lot cuz you know, just you growing up you're going and the other fights are happening Why do you think there wasn't a rematch?
Jose Ruiz (52:38.008)
Dude, I was going to ask you the same question. Like I was going to ask you the same question. I don't know. And I know that La Jolla, you know, apparently had trouble making his weight. You know what I mean? Like I think in the, you know, way in, had to go in there, butt ass naked, like to try to weigh in. And I don't know if it was dad and he moves up afterwards, but I have no clue why they never fought again. Like that's such a mystery to me, man. And again,
To your point exactly, I never really thought about at the time, like in 99, like these dudes need to fight again. Like this is a perfect fight to have a rematch with. You know what I'm saying? Like, well, the La Jolla's point of view, like the judges screwed me and Trinidad's point of view was like, no, I could perform better. Like we need to do this again. Never happened. I don't know if it's a Bob Arum, Don King thing. Like not sure. These dudes needed to fight again.
Deremy (53:15.861)
Yeah.
Deremy (53:33.91)
but I feel like...
Jose Ruiz (53:35.01)
It's a mystery that they didn't.
Deremy (53:37.024)
I feel like this fight had a lot of controversy after people were talking there's no way you couldn't have gotten great numbers. Like I don't think like the public was done with this fight either. Like with what happened and how Oscar now Oscar would have stood in there and fought more and maybe got the win decisively. I still think a rematch would get trended at was so a big name. He did bring in money. He was an attraction.
Jose Ruiz (53:44.332)
Right.
Jose Ruiz (53:48.568)
Yeah, right.
Deremy (54:04.022)
That would have been his first career loss if he would have lost the fight I still and he had so many defenses I think people would have wanted to see him get people would have said he deserves to get another shot at it The public I don't think was done with these two that's what I don't understand and maybe you're right Aram and King both both shady guys One probably shaded any other but both were pretty shady maybe something with them
But it still is like, money, these guys, one thing they, they spoke, they spoke two languages, English and money. So I'm like, the money would have been there for a rematch, especially with the controversy. I don't get why. Not only did it not happen then, and I see it now, it's not what this should be a, a, a big topic that how can we never, no one ever says anything. And it blows my mind.
Jose Ruiz (54:37.518)
Yeah, right.
Jose Ruiz (54:53.398)
It's not even discussed.
Nothing. again, I wasn't even saying anything. it was just like preparing for this. That was my number one question. Like why did these dudes not fight again? So I'm looking at just Delahoye is like fight history, whatever. Like he fights Darryl Cooley in February of 2000, right? He won the IBA welterweight. So he's in the same division still.
Deremy (55:01.512)
Me too, me too.
Jose Ruiz (55:25.39)
Loses it Mosley in 2000 June of 2000 welterweight division now I don't know if Gotti and one was a welterweight at this point, but He fights in June of 2001 as a middleweight. So that's still a Good almost two years like maybe a little less. I'm not sure where Gotti was at but It's not like he
Deremy (55:48.95)
And we know Trinidad in September of 2001, he had moved up. But that, like you said, two years after.
Jose Ruiz (55:53.516)
Right, right. So, right. So it's like, it wasn't, cause like, again, I mentioned earlier, like he, Delahoya had trouble making the weight. I, it's not that, you know what saying? Cause it's not like he moved up immediately after this fight. So it's a great question, man. And I, I have no clue why there was no rematch.
Deremy (56:15.914)
No, and I think it would have answered a lot as far as legacies. Even for a Trinidad, if you just add that rematch in there, his legacy could be cemented even more. I mean, I don't know if you could say it hurt. Maybe it could have hurt him more, I guess, if he fights a second time and he definitely gets a loss. But I think like just one more fight for Trinidad and one more fight for Oscar, I think it just changes so much.
Jose Ruiz (56:19.309)
Right.
Jose Ruiz (56:45.057)
Right, because if Oscar comes back on the flip side of your point, like if he comes back and performs the same way and it's now everybody's like, well, yeah, we definitely should have won the first fight. He's to know against probably his primary rival at this point in time. Like I think that boom that gets Oscar a little higher up and yeah, we loses a Mosley a couple of years, a year later, whatever. But still like, I think he comes back. Avengers is lost and now he's looking.
much much better now. The point is like no I didn't lose the first one now I just proved to you that I'm way better than this guy. So I don't know if maybe Trinidad's camp was like we don't want no parts to that like I don't know but if I'm Oscar I'm like no we need to fight again.
Deremy (57:29.755)
And you know what's funny what I also thought about Something I don't think we talked a lot about on this show here, but it's just funny what history can do Because I think Tito's best performance Was against Fernando Vargas. That was a great fighting underrated fight. How great of a like Like that that was a hell of a fight and Tito
Jose Ruiz (57:47.224)
All right. Very good fight, yes.
Deremy (57:53.652)
You know, put on a good show and got rocked a bit too. Like it was a close fight until the end. Mm hmm. At the time Vargas, cause they were trying to make this like the four Kings in a way. And they were kind of putting Vargas up there. And Vargas was a good fighter, but I just think like, you know, you have these rivals and they are your rivals, but I think sometimes
Jose Ruiz (57:57.282)
Vargas did, Vargas had people at well, yeah.
Jose Ruiz (58:07.032)
Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah, he was.
Deremy (58:22.548)
We don't realize that we should be kind of rooting for our rivals in a way too. Because let's say for Vando Vargas, he has a great career. He's a great fighter, right? Then those wins, which you could say is arguably Oscar, if not his first or his second best performance. A of people call that fight with Tito and Vargas, Tito's performance. If Vargas is great, that win raises them up more.
Jose Ruiz (58:52.12)
Right.
Deremy (58:52.18)
And he was a rival to both of them. But because Vargas kind of fizzled, he was good, but fizzled those great matchups that at the time were big fights. Both of those fights at the time were big. They don't mean anything now to people. And I think it's interesting. don't, so like a lot of times fans, if our rivals stink, we're like, yeah, that's great. But in a way you kind of need to root for them. You know what I'm saying? Like it's weird. like.
Jose Ruiz (59:01.759)
yeah. Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (59:18.389)
Absolutely.
Deremy (59:20.214)
I'm not even bringing this up just for like fun. I'm serious like for people listening some may know some don't Jose's Ohio State on Michigan, but I bet you like When Brady Hoke was the coach of Michigan and you're just easily beating them you it doesn't you you're happy you won But it doesn't matter when hardballs rising up and Urban Myers there and you're winning those big games It matters so like you kind of want Michigan to be good
Jose Ruiz (59:29.468)
yeah.
Jose Ruiz (59:36.268)
It doesn't feel like it.
Deremy (59:49.878)
but then you want to beat them and like vice versa. Like you want them to beat, but you don't think of it that way. But let's be real. if, if Michigan take, mean, college football is changing now with this 12 team thing. If Michigan loses to like some scrub team, that's going to take away from that big game at the end a little bit too. Like you're still going to want to win, but it takes away.
Jose Ruiz (01:00:09.548)
Yeah. Right. It's not a rivalry if one team is dominating. Like, you know what saying? Like it's just not, it's not fun. It's, you know, you're not beating this team. So it don't really matter. Like, you know, you can't really, the fan bases can't talk shit to each other. Cause it's like, we beat you Nate in a row at this point. Like it's been a few years since you've beaten us, you know, and some teams have to start cheating and things like that. But you know, to get wins and you're not going to go there, but it happens.
Deremy (01:00:15.04)
Mm -hmm.
Deremy (01:00:39.066)
Hmm, I dunno about that.
Jose Ruiz (01:00:40.718)
But yeah, I agree, man. They could have, 100 % that Vargas stuff, if he would have continued getting better, those wins stick out a lot more. Now years are like, yeah, you'd be fanning Vargas up. Everybody was doing that at some point in his career. But yeah, looking, moving past this fight, honestly, like...
Delahoya has the better post -career after this fight. You know, he's got bigger wins. He has a couple of bigger names, but I mean, kind of, you know, like they both beat Mayorga. He lost to Mosley twice. They both beat your boy, Campas. Like, I don't know. Both their careers went downhill though, after this.
Deremy (01:01:21.211)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:01:29.824)
Yeah. And I think if you're looking at all time ranking, Oscar's going to be higher than Felix. think he'll probably be rightfully so way higher. Like, yeah. Like so he's good. So it didn't hurt Oscar when it comes to comparison of Felix. Like people know what I never hear anyone saying ranking all time great fighters and they're putting Tito over Oscar. don't, I don't ever hear anyone doing that, but it's just fascinating to me because
Jose Ruiz (01:01:40.408)
Yeah, he should be, yeah.
Jose Ruiz (01:01:55.766)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:02:00.03)
I think what helps the four Kings in the eighties is that they were great fighters at the time, but then all of them kept winning and kept that up. And that's what made it so great. Where if one of them, if Hearns slips, right. It kind of weakens it a little bit. But I think that's what hurt these guys where the, you know, this was a time where the, the nineties boom of the heavyweights and that, I mean, there's another example of it. Like.
Jose Ruiz (01:02:09.62)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Jose Ruiz (01:02:19.617)
Absolutely, yeah.
Deremy (01:02:30.216)
If those guys could have really finished off and had great careers, you know, that elevates Lennox Lewis even more, that elevates the Holyfield more, but you get too much politicking and too much guys fizzling out, it doesn't, it hurts your legacy. So it's just funny. We don't talk about that a lot, but you really want to root for your rival to a certain point. But like none of us do that though. We always just love it when they stink, but.
Jose Ruiz (01:02:56.642)
Yeah, in the moment, absolutely not.
Deremy (01:02:59.626)
But we, know, something that looking at this episode for the first, was like thinking about it, like, man, like you kind of want your rival to be good to an extent. You don't want them to be way better than you or something like that. But it's to have that juice. But more importantly, especially for this show, to have that legacy, you need them to be good.
Jose Ruiz (01:03:21.346)
Nah, that's a great point there, I man. And that's right. Like I think people fight fans or promoters want always to go back to that Four Kings era, you know, that's never going to happen again. But, you know, you may have talent like that in the division, but they're just not going to fight each other like as much as those four guys did and have all those great performances. It's just never, ever, ever going to happen again. I mean, we were close in the nineties with those heavyweights, but again,
some guys fizzled out and never fought each other, you know, so, no, that's a great point, man. Very, very well said. I think, again, in the moment, we don't look at it like that, but looking back the way we do, especially on this show, Dereme, where it's like, man, like what could have been that if Vargas has a better career, you know, now you got Mosley now in there too, like Mosley was a good fighter, like all these guys fighting and beating each other up, like.
You know, cause Trinidad beats Moseley later on. they all fought each other. You know what saying? A couple of times and it's just missing that one. You know what I mean? Like, and that kind of elevated things so much.
Deremy (01:04:26.698)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:04:30.142)
No, I mean we did our last episode was Pacquiao Marquez It helps obviously know what Manny Pacquiao who he was It helps his legacy like Marquez didn't just have a spurt and just have good fights against Manny and kind of fizzled Marquez was a great fighter all the way through like, you know, Marquez's losses are to the two top ten fighters and Manny and in Floyd so like that
adds to Manny's legacy, which is already great, but that adds to it like, no, he battled and had wars, not with a guy who like, he was good. He had these wars with a great fighter in Marquez, like, that makes him elevate even more. So I think that's what's needed.
Jose Ruiz (01:05:00.856)
Bye.
Jose Ruiz (01:05:12.578)
Right and you can fight this guy because he you can fight him two years later because he continues to get better You know I'm saying like and you're both like elevating yourself and then two years later you fight him again Because he's still a good fighter and it's you're still gonna fighter and it's gonna be still a payday because you're both still ascending like Nah, man, that's that's true man. Cuz again two years later these two guys if they fight again
Deremy (01:05:19.913)
Mm -hmm.
Jose Ruiz (01:05:38.616)
They're still at this point ascending, you know, but if they fight again two more years later, they were not doing that. Right. Right. So it's.
Deremy (01:05:43.56)
No one cares. That is true. The window was very short for the rematch because if two years later when Trinidad loses to Hopkins in a way he does, you talk about instantly like here today, gone today. He was forgotten after that fight. Like no one Tito mania was done after he lost to Benoit Hopkins the way he did.
Jose Ruiz (01:06:04.364)
Right. Yep.
Deremy (01:06:10.698)
So like they had like a two year window to get that rematch in, but that was it.
Jose Ruiz (01:06:15.128)
Yeah, because they both went easy fights afterwards, you know, just to kind of get back to whatever, you know, Cooley was an easy fight and then Trinidad fought David Reed, a dude from Philly. That was an easy fight and I don't know what could have been.
Deremy (01:06:30.376)
Actually it wasn't for him though, it was close actually.
Jose Ruiz (01:06:33.73)
That David Reed fight? David Reed his eyes were closed I remember.
Deremy (01:06:34.964)
Yeah. And in the end he pulled away, but it was like it, cause Reed had some punching power and he was a big strong.
Jose Ruiz (01:06:42.722)
Yeah, his eyes, but his problem was his eyes, like literally how his eyes were. Like it was easy for him to, his eyes to swallow up. just remember him every fight, his eyes were always swollen up.
Deremy (01:06:53.994)
Yeah, and that's thing. Remember he won the gold medal. So he was like, really like, he kind of had that, he said earlier that, that Ray Leonard De La Hoya, that gold medal propels you. And so like, he has some good power. It wasn't like the, the Trenad Vargas fight, I think it's very overlooked on how great of a fight. That was a really entertaining fight.
Jose Ruiz (01:06:56.941)
You're right. Yep.
Jose Ruiz (01:07:15.148)
Nah, great fight. then because Cheeto started off well, it was like kind of flip flopping with the Delahoyah thing. And then Vargas came on strong afterwards and made it a very good fight.
Deremy (01:07:21.482)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:07:25.874)
Right. So David Reed wasn't as good as that, but it was a good fight, but Tito won it. And especially in the end, he pulled away, but it doesn't matter because Reed, I don't think people remember him for that goal. Like he fizzled out. Like if Reed had a great career that could help. So it's just funny, man. Like these are hyped matches at the time. Like if you go back in time, man, there was some anticipation for it.
Jose Ruiz (01:07:40.728)
Right.
Deremy (01:07:53.938)
Now it's like another just like a W on the record. But it was a big win at the time.
Jose Ruiz (01:08:03.438)
Yeah, yeah. mean, so I guess a question I had was like, did this fight live up to the hype?
Deremy (01:08:13.768)
No, it was a big disappointment. I'm middle school age at this point. And I think that's a problem that already at that point, that wasn't the first disappointment of like the scorecards and the bizarre of boxing. I had seen that happen already. And I think, you know, when you look at things,
Like you look at, we did the Montreal Expos in 94, a couple of episodes ago, and how like that really changed a generation on how they looked at baseball. But when you get a sour taste at such a young age, it can hurt a sport. And I think for me, you you had already Whitaker versus Chavez, Whitaker and Oscar. Like you said, Oscar had a few fights where it's like, did you really win that fight? Vegas home cooking.
Jose Ruiz (01:09:00.931)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (01:09:12.013)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:09:12.95)
The bizarre that the Tyson Holyfield with the ear was a year earlier. I believe so it's like What it's up with this sport like it was already like we don King at a young age. I knew he's a clown He's a character. What is up with this guy and he's a piece I'm you know, that's bad when I'm eight nine ten And I know if he's a part of this something weirds going on something shady is gonna happen and I think last episode we talked about why or we missed this but
Jose Ruiz (01:09:22.392)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (01:09:37.432)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:09:42.56)
We're answering the question of why boxing is where it's at and it's not due to fighters or lack thereof fighters. It's due to their own doing.
Jose Ruiz (01:09:52.302)
Yeah, and it just got worse and worse, you know, like, because again, like we can look at, talked about like the eighties and, you know, that division before Kings and all that. We talked about the nineties with the heavyweights. That was an amazing era right there. And this is, you know, now again, we're back to where in 99, I mean, I mean, previous years too, but like, what are like welterweight division is like pushing boxing at this point. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's
The heavyweights are all pretty much gone. You know what mean? Like you got Lennox Lewis and stuff like that, but he's dominating at this point. Now these guys are the big names and you're getting stuff like this, you know, and then they wonder why 25 years later, you know, our kids barely even watch box or my kid, my not your kids, but my, my kids, like they'll watch a fight, but there's nothing like they're not getting this, like this, this anticipation for these fights. It's just.
You want to come watch this fight? Yeah, I'll come over. Like it's, it's not, it's not a big deal to them. And I think this is just like what boxing created with all these major events. So.
Deremy (01:10:58.528)
Yeah, and let's keep it real.
Deremy (01:11:04.608)
Someone getting whooped in a fight stinks. Like, and that can be disappointing where you hype it up and then someone just got out, got knocked out or they just weren't up for it. That stinks. But there is something to fans credit. You might as well, like if you call this correctly for Oscar, it doesn't hurt it as much. Like the shadiness really dampers it. Where if Oscar, even though he, say he dances not as early,
Jose Ruiz (01:11:12.973)
Right.
Jose Ruiz (01:11:25.058)
Yeah.
Deremy (01:11:33.28)
But like you said earlier, for the last two rounds he does it. Fans are disappointed because he outclassed him, we thought he'd a closer fight. I don't think it makes fans be like, I'm done with boxing though. The shadiness is what makes it being like, which is so ironic, like just call it straight up and you wouldn't lose fans like that.
Jose Ruiz (01:11:45.452)
Nah. Nah.
Jose Ruiz (01:11:54.754)
Yeah, that's you lose them fast that way. You know what mean? Like real fast because I remember I was a kid though, but I can remember my uncles were mad at like Tyson You know what mean? They were paying all this money for pay -per -view and it was one round knockouts like constantly and they were like man like like I'm tired of paying for these fights cuz This dude is not like it's not I'm not getting my money's worth out of this, you know And he's and he's doing what he's supposed to do. You know what I'm saying? Like and
Deremy (01:12:21.792)
Mm -hmm.
Jose Ruiz (01:12:23.82)
Like it could be so many different things that with boxing that can like push people away. think that's still exciting though. You know what saying? Like even though you may be losing money, but it's you're in the moment and you're excited to watch that, you know, that made him, you said it earlier, like there's no real comparison for Tyson. Like, but when there's you, you take the fighters out of it and it's more politics than you're, you're going to lose and lose people for good.
Deremy (01:12:50.23)
But only because you mentioned, and it's a good point, with your family, I bet your uncles with Tyson, they still kept buying those fights though. And you're right, a lot of people in my family complain about like, man, don't go to bathroom. Like, don't do that, like the fight's gonna be over. But for how as exciting as he was and as quick, you got a great knockout. And that didn't make people leave the sport.
Jose Ruiz (01:12:59.754)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Jose Ruiz (01:13:05.368)
Yes, yes.
Deremy (01:13:17.846)
They might've complained about like these pay -per -view prices, but they didn't leave. But there's something to it though. These shady things from, know, Meldrick Taylor and Chavez. Like, and this is all in our lifetimes of watching it. We're not, we're not going, we can go back to the history books and keep going, but it's just like all that shady stuff really hurt it. And this was like already to be 11 years old in my case and being like, here we go again at that young age, that's a shame.
Jose Ruiz (01:13:31.587)
Right.
Deremy (01:13:47.818)
Like, to be saying it.
Jose Ruiz (01:13:49.582)
Yeah, that's a shame man, but in this fight, that's why I asked if it was, you mentioned this fight being disappointing and stuff. Like yeah, this did not live up to the hype and like, now I will say this though.
It, the fight didn't live up to the hype, but when he got that decision, was, I, I, where I grew up at, it was almost like if a team won a championship, like the reaction, like that was that I saw, man, like I have never, I've won, I've never seen that for a fight, like ever again, like for boxing, for a boxer to win a fight and people react the way that
people were reacting at this time for, especially in the Puerto Rican community and not just in Philly, but New York and all where in Chicago with his huge populations, people were in the streets. Like, you know what I mean? Like in going nuts in Puerto Rico, people were going absolutely nuts. had a parade for him. Like I never, Jeremy, I've never, I've seen it with the Super Bowls and stuff like that. I had never seen that in not a major sport.
like a reaction like that. Like the shit was amazing, man. And it was just a great time, man, to be a Hispanic boxing fan. But man, like I wouldn't, I, the fight was disappointing. The post reaction was 100 % not.
Deremy (01:15:15.988)
No, no, but I think it's interesting. So there was no, cause you're right. He had a heroes parade in Puerto Rico. Only I could think about, and I wasn't alive to see it, but like when Duran beat Leonard that first fight and he went, but he went back to Panama. Yeah. So he got that reaction, which was great. But you're right. I do remember seeing Trinidad get that hero's welcome.
Jose Ruiz (01:15:34.188)
Right, and he was the king.
Deremy (01:15:44.8)
There wasn't, there was no part of you or the people you were around to be like, did he really win? that none of ever came up. Like after that, like it was just celebration.
Jose Ruiz (01:15:57.378)
It was excitement man, like in the back of my mind it was there but it was We were happy man, you know me and I don't know if it's because like this dude in this fight like you know I'm saying and then and then he got the decision and we were like, holy shit like but it was it was not in my mind in the moment, you know, and then looking back I feel like an idiot but like it's just
Deremy (01:16:08.95)
Hahaha!
Jose Ruiz (01:16:22.955)
I think a part of it was like, didn't know if he won that fight. And he got the decision again in Las Vegas against Oscar De La Hoya, which if you would have asked me prior to, I would have said, that's not going to happen.
Deremy (01:16:35.712)
No, no, was, it definitely was a big deal and it was maybe one of the last super fights I really got excited for, honestly. Because I look at like a lot of the Marquez -Pacquiao fights were great. I don't call, they weren't super fights though, either.
Jose Ruiz (01:16:48.162)
Yeah?
Jose Ruiz (01:16:57.294)
Because I didn't expect that from the first fight, to be honest.
Deremy (01:16:59.434)
Definitely, definitely, yeah, the first fight didn't have that hype at all.
Jose Ruiz (01:17:02.678)
Right. And then afterwards, all right, like, yeah, but still that's, that's a lot of these big fights that happen afterwards. I didn't expect them to be that great. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, and they were great, but it's, they didn't have this. Not a lot of fights had this.
Deremy (01:17:19.878)
No, this was special. This was Leonard Hearns, Leonard Hagler. It was on that level. Hagler -Herns, it was there. So now this was fun and we're going to do our own rewatch of this fight on our YouTube channel. So please like subscribe for the podcast, but also like subscribe, go on YouTube bigger than the game with Dereme and Jose. Check out our YouTube channel where it won't be the podcast. It's going to be us doing a round by round rewatch.
And we're going to keep score and see like, Hey, you know, do we, is Trinidad a little bit closer than we thought? Was it even a bigger margin for Oscar than we thought? We're going to do it and you're going to get our, our opinions on it. So please do that. But Jose, this was fun, man.
Jose Ruiz (01:17:50.242)
Yeah.
Jose Ruiz (01:18:05.504)
Absolutely, Derry man. We love doing these boxing ones man. So yeah, just again like and subscribe We've got some more coming for y 'all
Deremy (01:18:12.672)
So for the man, the myth, the legend, Mr. Jose Ruiz, I'm Dereme Dove. Thank you guys for listening to Bigger Than A Game with Dereme and Jose.
Jose Ruiz (01:18:20.27)
base.